@manmanmanmanmanman said in #50:
> @athinira
>
> You didn't quote the whole section.
>
> (...)
>
> Clearly "howell-gate" is caught, I don't see how you could argue otherwise. "using external assistance... unfair advantage ... etc".
I can - and someone already did: By the simple fact that Magnus has no control over what David says.
I didn't need to quote the whole section, because i don't need to. Just because the overall title of the rule is "any external assistance", you can't just decide to ignore the rest of it where they explain the main definitions of what that is. And they very clearly define it as ASKING for help, not RECEIVING help. You can try to expand the idea of "any external assistance" all you like, but at the end of the day, that's not your prerogative. It's Lichess prerogative.
And so far, I've never heard of anyone who has ever gotten banned for streaming on the site because they had someone sitting behind them, who might OCCASIONALLY be backseat-gaming. Lichess has the final word on whether or not the occasional backseat-gaming constitutes cheating. And they clearly don't consider it so - including for other players than Magnus. And that's pretty much case closed.
> Streamers are already responsible for ensuring they do not receive assistance, which is why most go into "emote only"
> and/or close chat altogether. So there is no "deterrent effect" on streamers.
>
> Also, when money is involved, rules need to be applied more rigorously.
The difference between someone in your room and stream chat is that you can turn the stream chat off or ignore it. But you can't (easily) turn your hearing off. And even if you ask people not to backseat-game, they might still occasionally forget about it and do it.
Playing devils advocate for a minute: By your logic, playing Hand and Brain would also be considered cheating, if the stronger player is playing the brain. Since the stronger player is likely to know the stronger moves, hand and brain is like giving tips: if the "brain" says "knight"; then that's a tip for the hand/weaker player that a knight move is the best. Even if the player isn't guarenteed to find the correct knight move, it's still a tip. So do you think they ban streamers playing Hand and Brain?
The answer is: obviously not. The rules have some wiggle room to have fun.
And again, all you're doing is discouraging streamers from streaming then. It's stupid, and streamers would simply move to a less stupid site, and that's bad for business. Plain and simple. If you actually ran a chess-site, you would understand why this is not in your interest (even if your site is not for-profit).
And yes, this also goes for tournaments, including with minor cash prices - this is not a $300.000 major tournament or a $2 mil. WC match. It's a ~$500 mini-tournament which is designed to generate hype for the site - and that's what streamers do.
> @athinira
>
> You didn't quote the whole section.
>
> (...)
>
> Clearly "howell-gate" is caught, I don't see how you could argue otherwise. "using external assistance... unfair advantage ... etc".
I can - and someone already did: By the simple fact that Magnus has no control over what David says.
I didn't need to quote the whole section, because i don't need to. Just because the overall title of the rule is "any external assistance", you can't just decide to ignore the rest of it where they explain the main definitions of what that is. And they very clearly define it as ASKING for help, not RECEIVING help. You can try to expand the idea of "any external assistance" all you like, but at the end of the day, that's not your prerogative. It's Lichess prerogative.
And so far, I've never heard of anyone who has ever gotten banned for streaming on the site because they had someone sitting behind them, who might OCCASIONALLY be backseat-gaming. Lichess has the final word on whether or not the occasional backseat-gaming constitutes cheating. And they clearly don't consider it so - including for other players than Magnus. And that's pretty much case closed.
> Streamers are already responsible for ensuring they do not receive assistance, which is why most go into "emote only"
> and/or close chat altogether. So there is no "deterrent effect" on streamers.
>
> Also, when money is involved, rules need to be applied more rigorously.
The difference between someone in your room and stream chat is that you can turn the stream chat off or ignore it. But you can't (easily) turn your hearing off. And even if you ask people not to backseat-game, they might still occasionally forget about it and do it.
Playing devils advocate for a minute: By your logic, playing Hand and Brain would also be considered cheating, if the stronger player is playing the brain. Since the stronger player is likely to know the stronger moves, hand and brain is like giving tips: if the "brain" says "knight"; then that's a tip for the hand/weaker player that a knight move is the best. Even if the player isn't guarenteed to find the correct knight move, it's still a tip. So do you think they ban streamers playing Hand and Brain?
The answer is: obviously not. The rules have some wiggle room to have fun.
And again, all you're doing is discouraging streamers from streaming then. It's stupid, and streamers would simply move to a less stupid site, and that's bad for business. Plain and simple. If you actually ran a chess-site, you would understand why this is not in your interest (even if your site is not for-profit).
And yes, this also goes for tournaments, including with minor cash prices - this is not a $300.000 major tournament or a $2 mil. WC match. It's a ~$500 mini-tournament which is designed to generate hype for the site - and that's what streamers do.
